“What Mahler did in Vienna is beyond human.”

Mr Welser-Möst, do you remember the first time you heard the music of Gustav Mahler?

Welser-Möst: Yes, I do. It was actually the Symphony No. 1 and must have been ten or eleven years old and it was the student orchestra of the Wiener Musikhochschule, at that time with Karl Österreicher. So that was quite some time ago.

At that age for me everything was sort of new and it was not that I was immediately drawn especially to Gustav Mahler. I have to say the next experience I remember with Gustav Mahler was Mahler 5 with Solti and that was like an earthquake for me. That I remember very well. I think I was fifteen or something like that. And from that moment onwards I had a real interest in that music.

And when did you start to conduct Mahler?

Welser-Möst: My first Mahler symphony I conducted at the age of 23, and that was Mahler 1 with my beautiful Jeunesse Orchestra in Linz.

When you look back to your Mahler understanding at this time and now, did it change?

Welser-Möst: Completely. But I have to say that this maybe counts for every composer. For me it worked that way: you get drawn more towards the so called easier symphonies, number 1 to number 5, especially number 2 was very appealing for me at that time and number 4 as well. And then later on, number 4 was also one of my first recordings in ’89 with the London Philharmonic with Felicity Lott. But later on I have to say that I got drawn more and more towards the more complex and so-called more difficult symphonies, especially number 7. Number 7 and 9 I would say are my favourites.

As a conductor, what is the main thing you have to take care of performing Mahler?

Welser-Möst: It is simply the range not only of emotions, but also the range of expressions in the sense that like in number 7, the Nachtmusik with the guitar and the mandolin, draws your attention completely to its chamber music. And on the other side you have, like the first movement or the last movement in 7, you have the typical outbursts.

The symphony Nr. 7 anyway is a very special topic because the architecture is very tricky for a conductor. That is a really difficult thing. You can compare the problem with Mahler 8.

The first movement can be so overpowering that the first 20 minutes of the second movement can be a real problem. And I think actually like so often, the root of the problem actually lies somewhere else … then right away it appears. If you overpower the first movement in Nr. 8, which is so easy to do, and which simply comes down to balancing it, wire articulations, the quality of articulations, you are lost. Because, especially the brass and the choruses, if they don’t play or sing in fortissimo a real legato it always will be too loud, where ever it is. And that is the trick, really in the first movement of No. 8 and that, if you really discipline in that, it pays off in the second movement.

Is there a danger of overdoing it when conducting Mahler?

Welser-Möst: Yes, I think the danger anyway is always there in music, but especially in Mahler. And as a conductor you become self-indulgent. And it is so easy to do with that sort of music. But I think especially from number 6 onwards it takes away the modernism of his music. And also the finesse of the instrumentation. Like in the second Nachtmusik in Mahler’s 7. Or when you look at Das Lied von der Erde: if you overpower the first movement – you can go home. Because there is nothing to follow. The architecture in emotions is as carefully planned as the architecture in the form. You have to keep the architecture, otherwise you just sort of handle yourself from one very emotional moment to the next one. And in the end, what it becomes, is boring for the listener. You have to pay attention to the arch and to the architecture of it.

Why did it take so long for Mahler to become established in the repertoire?

Welser-Möst: I think there are several components. One is: it speaks for Mahler as a modernist. Secondly, arts all together are always connected to the time where it is created or where we listen to it or look at it. And, not only for Mahler, but the 30’s and 40’s were a bad time for Jewish composers. And when it is out of the sight of the public, it is gone. I actually still know a lot of people, and also when I grew up here in Austria, a lot of people of the generation before me, said ‘Mahler, that is bad taste’. If I have to put it in a little sloppy way – the ego trip was not fashionable.

And now look at how our society has developed since the Second World War. And how, especially starting in the sixties, the ego trips have become sort of more and more important. Also that relates to what you said before to the self-indulgent interpretations of his music. These ego-trips which you easily can take in Mahler’s music, sort of via that Mahler’s music has become attractive again and appealing. For me it is highly interesting if you look like Leonard Bernstein, who no doubt was a big egomaniac and was a wonderful genius and ingenious conductor… And I, no doubt, have only admiration and respect for him. But you know, he showed us very much that ego manic side of Mahler’s music. And I think it took other people like Karajan finally enough who did not touch Mahler’s music till very, very late. But actually the recording of Mahler 9, the live recording, is extremely touching and beautiful. And I think sort of connects with what Bruno Walter saw in Mahler’s music. And like with every ingenious piece of art there are many different ways to look at it. Because it is so rich and so full, and so I think also Mahler’s music you cannot pin down only on one track. That’s impossible.

How do you deal with Mahler’s obsession with suffering and redemption?

Welser-Möst: Sometimes actually I feel a little taken back by it. To my taste it can be overdone and there is always that trap for me. But at the same time, if you take it in a less personal sense and a sort of more universal sense, then I find it extremely touching. But it is not via self-indulgent interpretation. That makes it difficult for me.

The 9th symphony seems to be very important to you …

Welser-Möst: I am always very taken by composers when they speak about the last things in life – when it is close to death. If you look at Schubert, if you look at Mozart, if you look at Wagner with his Parsifal, if you look at the Bruckner 9 or the last piano sonatas by Beethoven, the string quartets and so on … where it becomes, in a certain sense, less materialistic andless real in a way. And that is why Mahler 9, especially the last movement, and especially the last page for me are very interesting. And the same is also the last few pages of Das Lied von der Erde. Because with very little, only sort of late composers can do that, with very little to say much more than with all the bombast of previous pieces.

Some people say Mahler was a kind of prophet, he anticipates the catastrophes and the conditions of modern human being.

Welser-Möst: I in principle have problems with that, because it imprisons arts and connects it too much with a specific time. Because if that is true, the logic step is that in a hundred years we won’t play Mahler any more because we don’t have to play him anymore, because he has only talked about our time. So that is philosophically a very dangerous thing to say. I think we should agree on: Great art has the element of timelessness within itself, carries that what in certain ideologies or philosophies you would call the eternal spark. So I rather look at the bigger picture than at the picture which I think is too politically influenced.

And from the spiritual point of view, what would be the message of Mahler?

Welser-Möst: I think the message is the same as for all great arts. That there is more than just the material we touch and feel day in, day out; that there is something what we call spirit. And I think he has touched that in a very individual way. And that makes him very unique and special.

In this house, the Vienna State Opera, you now have the same position Mahler once had. Did you read his letters?

Welser-Möst: Oh yes. You know, what is really interesting for me is not the complaints about the house as it is – I think it has not changed that much since his time.If you look at it from a positive angle, there is no other city in the world where the opera house is the topic of such fights and intrigues and politics and all that – which means it is very important. And so I really value that very highly that people still can fight over something like an opera house. And that is very unique.

What interests me is what he did artistically. If you look at his first year – I think I am right when I say he conducted basically every production of any piece they did at that time. He wanted to judge it from the conductor’s podium and not only sitting in the audience or watching rehearsals. That is amazing. I could not do that. I mean, that is beyond human, what he did there. And he has influenced music theatre, opera as such, in such a big way, with Alfred Roller, and not only as a composer but also as the director of one of the most important opera houses in the world. He has achieved more than basically everybody else.

He called himself a holiday composer. Would he have composed in a different way if he would have had more time to compose?

Welser-Möst: That is speculation of course. But I would say yes. When you look at any great artist, they are also influenced by their surrounding. And when you look at– well, put the holiday composer and you look like at his 3rd Symphony, and he was at the Attersee, and actually having a house myself there and knowing the nature there for a while, it speaks to me in a very special way. And I do not think he could have written the same piece during a grey November in Vienna. So I think surroundings do influence composers and what they do influences them. So I would agree. He would have written different music partly.

Did the sound of the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra influence him?

Welser-Möst: Absolutely. I think the specifics of the Viennese horn, the string sound which has been so famous for decades and decades and decades, and the Viennese oboe, very important because also in Mahler’s music like in Bruckner’s music, certain solos are really low, which is easier on the Viennese oboe than on the French oboe. So I think these sound specifics have influenced him a big way.

What are you planning for March 2011?

Welser-Möst: I am somebody in principle who does not like to celebrate these special days too much because for me his music is valuable and precious 365 days a year, every year. So I am not into all these jubilees and whatever.

Interview: Wolfgang Schaufler, Universal Edition
Transcript: Angelika Worseg
18.6.2009, Vienna
© Universal Edition